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Jan 30, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35
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#41 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Oct 2006
Profession: E/Mo
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Jan 30, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38
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#42 | ||||||
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2006
Guild: Super Kaon Action Team [Ban]
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There's a lot of "anti-teamwipe" mechanics now, namely deathpact, WoH, weaponspells, and paragons. While from a shallow standpoint you could say it stops people from being completely obliterated right away this is true. But instead the team will go down slowly with a much harder chance to come back as its also much harder to suddenly wipe the opponent. Isn't it much more interesting to get your face kicked in right away, but know it isn't over yet cause you can do the same with the opponent at advantageous terrain in your base? A strong strategy has always been letting the enemy come to your base and then hit them with full offense while they dont even know what hit them. See LuM vs Te game 1, isle of the dead GWWC. Quote:
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Mend touch and natural stride are the reason cripshots can't kill each other anymore (coupled with speedboosts now triggering under snares and higher health). They can remove their conditions and dshot your cripshot. I remember one of WM's cripshot we could not kill him cause he'd dodge almost all your cripshots and by the time we finally cripped him our ranger was half health and dying. This forced us to retreat or lose npcs/give opponent morale. Nowadays a ranger can do no such thing. This is where sinsplit gives such a BIG advantage over conventional split. Against sins 1 second of not paying attention, or a positional mistake can kill you or an NPC, the conventional split does not have nearly this power. And in that sense you could say the assassin is good for the game, yet the role it has now is still laughable compared to what a cripshot could do and how hard it was to play. In order to make this game unforgiving again (it's possible) some MAJOR overhauls would have to be made in the developer's mindset, which is why it's not going to happen. I can only HOPE that they grasp this in gw2. Right now it would globally (notice that this is just an example of how much things would need to change, if they really would want to make this change everything must be thought over much more carefully than i am doing right now; casually typing down skills) require: Nerfing: mending touch, partygons, woh, supermanrunskills, guardian, aegis, gole, powerleak and interrupts in general, dshot, savage shot, players health, magebane shot, splinter, ancestor, fast cast/recharge sets, weapon of warding, bsurge (wtb eprod), weapon of shadow, basically: removing NF/Factions class from playability. And of course much more. Buffing: Mend ailment, inspiration energy gain, arenanet servers, divine boon, CoP, blackout, ward against melee (10 energy), lod, gale, somewaytostopcripshotfrombeingdshotted-orpeoplerunning away, etherprodigy back to 2dmg/e. And much more, anything that requires skill or could improve the game needs a buff. Of course, this isn't going to happen, because Izzy is working on gw2. |
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Jan 30, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50
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#43 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2006
Guild: Super Kaon Action Team [Ban]
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An example of still some unforgiveness left in the game just came to mind.
Usually people hate playing against bloodspike because they think it's "lame" and because it's so 1-dimensional. While this all might be true or not, one can say however that bloodspike is currently the most unforgiving build around (or it at least was for certain at 25/25 vod). You can wipe them once, wipe them twice, or EVEN 3 times. But if you then push too hard into their base or make a mistake (like warrior overextended, or infuser in range) they can kill someone put up frozen soil and push hard. This can often COMPLETELY turn around the game and to me this makes a game against bloodspike intense till the very end. It's sad that the only build in guild wars currently holding such risk is a boring skilless spike. |
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Jan 30, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20
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#44 |
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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I wouldn't pin it on the new professions. Skill design in general has been very weak in this game since Prophecies; the 'best' classes for the game rely heavily on skills available in the original game while the expansion classes have only skills from the poorly designed skill sets that came with the later chapters. Assassins and Ritualists are the worst designed, mechanically (rigid combo chains and spirits are two of the worst mechanics in the game and central to those two professions), but everything from Factions on suffers from the same problems. The best thing to do with any of the expansion professions is to marginalize them until they're interesting niche characters at best, as that's all their skillsets can really aspire to without making the game dumb.
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. |
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Jan 30, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40
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#45 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: Servants of Fortuna
Profession: E/Me
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It almost feels like the good stuff came mostly out of several years of luck over the course of development. Some credit is due for finding and keeping those good things, but they never did seem to figure out how to create them on purpose. |
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Jan 30, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13
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#46 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: May 2006
Guild: The Best Guild In The Game [Best]
Profession: N/
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there is a difference between proph and factions that ensign already stated, that being the actual mechanics to the skills. skill numbers are easily changed, whereas the skills mechanics... not so much
i forget who originally brought this up in a conversation (someone much more intellegent than myself when it comes to game design/balance), but they said something to the tune of as long as primary attributes are created as energy management, they can/will be exploited. Originally like Mysterial said Expertise was rediculous, Soul reaping, Leadership, Mysticism, all overpowered when set in the ideal enviorment. Energy storage, which really isnt energy management per say, and critical strikes are the only 2 that are arguably balanced concepts. |
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Jan 30, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13
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#47 | ||
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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That's not the case for Factions or Nightfall, where bad design decisions underwent minimal development before being dropped wholesale onto live. Quote:
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. Last edited by Ensign; Jan 30, 2008 at 09:16 PM // 21:16.. |
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Jan 31, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02
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#48 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2007
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people under assumptions that Prophecies came out the break balance hasn't been playing guild wars that long or have real memory problems. Prophecies didn't reach its state of balance until 2-3 months period before factions came out.
the new classes were bad for players, like anything new in a competitive game, moaning and groaning will follow it from the day it was released. As players who utilize the new stuff own the ones who still play business as usual. New stuff, that is widely available, provide alternatives, and doesn't marginalize existing templates, but makes previous strategies a lot less effective. Is never bad for the game. Funny thing is I don't think the Guild Wars community, at least the ones that like to talk a lot, are mature enough to make that distinction. Though they are really quick to point out intelligent reasons why the new flavors of the month is bad their enjoyment of the game. Though they sound smart, you don't have to be intelligent to ruin a game. |
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Jan 31, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22
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#49 | ||||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada bro.
Profession: A/D
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Eh I really don't see too much problems with ritualists.
If you want to pinpoint things such as spirits, then you have something. However Ritualists have healing,weapon spells (support) and their channeling magic. That alone is enough to work with, I wouldn't say their broken, when they have enough to work with that molding them would not be exponentially hard. Quote:
How can something be the worst designed because of 1 out of 4 aspects of it are problematic. I'd also argue that spirits have recieved many hits, and that their influence on the game at the moment is not large. ________________ anyways for sin problems I find people are over reacting a lot. A good look at the skills, and the attribute affects appears to show that they are also able to be molded into something well rounded without changing many or any of their in game mechanics. Quote:
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Which makes you dreadfully incorrect =P Quote:
rank/pride/money whatever, as long as classes affect things that are at stake they will be talked about positively or negatively. As people want to win, they will use or not use those classes and if they thing that class should not be able to be used at all at the moment for the "sake of the game" they will talk about it. There really is no choice to use or not use. It's more of, to win or not to win =P Last edited by ensoriki; Jan 31, 2008 at 01:28 AM // 01:28.. |
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Jan 31, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48
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#50 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La La Land
Guild: [NOVA]
Profession: A/
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I’ve argued points like this before – though as my guild isn’t large enough to do top 100 GvG, guys like Moriz and Ensign are going to say, once, again, that I’m too stupid to possibly offer an opinion – but despite that, there are points to these guys’ posts. Yes, the current game isn’t so well balanced, but ye know? I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not so much the fault of all the post-Prophecies classes as it is the Warrior’s fault.
Hold up, don’t lynch me yet. Think about it a second. As has been pointed out, innumerable times and by innumerable people, the Warrior is the perfect melee class. It has massive armor which renders it essentially impervious to anything but catastrophic damage and an entirely costless offense which suffers the one, single drawback of being unable to frontload their spike skills right off the bat. As Ensign himself wrote in his infamous DPS article, Elementalists have to give everything they’ve got just to deal damage at the same rate as a Warrior swinging an axe, and this doesn’t even account for the sorts of free spikes adrenaline offers. A Warrior with an axe, a shield, and his default armor is a threat all by himself, without using a single skill. For most, this is fantastic, but it also means that there really is no possibility, at all, of anything else being introduced and properly balanced without being too sub-par to see play. The Warrior’s unshakeable domination of all things melee, in my opinion, strangles any chance of this game ever seeing a truly diverse set of offensive options. No, I’m not arguing that the post-Core professions don’t need work, but what I am arguing is that in all this talk of skill and balance and the glorification of personal talent…has anyone ever mentioned that just maybe, it’d be nice to see something other than a Shock Axe as a GvG team’s primary means of damage? Let’s face it – if ArenaNet had never made Factions or Nightfall or Gwen or, in fact, anything after Prophecies, which is what many of you are saying would have been ideal, this game would likely have petered out and died. New content really is pivotal to an MMO’s success, whether that new content be in the form of periodic events and game updates, traditional expansion packs, or Guild Wars’ Campaign method. If you never do anything new, people eventually lose interest and drift away. However, as has also been pointed out, Prophecies’ classes were designed such as they left very little room for any sort of innovation, meaning that the whole enterprise was likely doomed from the start. Now, what if the Assassin, rather than being a super crack-monkey rigid-chain instagibber than everyone hates, was instead designed as a damage frontloader and divisive, disruptive fighter? Rather than the current model, a type whose damage is Energy-based and thus requires resources to expend, but whose Critical Strikes-induced management allows him to expend those resources more readily than any other class wielding his weapons. Perhaps all Assassin attack skills would be dual attacks rather than current L-O-D chains, with appropriately scaled numbers and different effects for each strike. Such as Twisting Fangs reading: “Dual Attack. If Twisting Fangs hits, it deals +5-17 damage. If the first strike hits, target foe begins Bleeding for X seconds; if the second strike hits, target foe suffers a Deep Wound for Y seconds.” Now, if Assassin dual attacks didn’t have to follow a chain system and were designed instead in that manner, would they be nearly as broken/inflexible? No. However, would Assassins be worth taking over Warriors? Probably not, because even though the Assassin has powerful frontloaded damage, more ability to penetrate blocks for various effects, and the ability to quickly stack on far more effects than any Warrior…well, they don’t have 96 base AL, two sets of weapon modifiers, and the ability to kill things without even using skills. One thing I’m fervently hoping for in Guild Wars 2 is that the Warrior’s steel-fisted lock on everything melee is broken, and thus room made for a variety of different offensive styles in the game. Hear me out. What if, in GW2, there are four main melee classes: the Knight, a sword-and-shield character who retains the Warrior’s inherently massive armor and some of its costless offense, but who doesn’t deal that staggering damage all by itself, rather retaining the acceptable-if-not-stellar damage of the sword and its more technical nature. A Berserker, given Axe Mastery and a powerful adrenal, costless offense, but who does not have any innate shield attribute lines and does not have the Warrior’s huge AL and is instead restricted to Dervish or Assassin-level armor. His Axe retains its damaging capabilities, but he’s not an Abrahms anymore. A Barbarian who inherits Hammer and Scythe and the same hybrid style adrenal/Energy offense and powerful base AL as the sword-wielding Knight, but who lacks a shield to further armor up and whose weapons aren’t as good at out-and-out pressure as the Axe. In return, they get the powerful disruptive effects of Hammers and…well, whatever they do with Scythes. And a Rogue(ish thing…) who gets Daggers and an entirely Energy-based offense, but some method of replenishing that Energy a’la Critical Strikes (my personal choice for most balanced/awesome of all the primary attributes). His offense is frontloaded and thus available to him at any time and he is faster and more reactive than the others, but his armor is weaker and he can’t pressure as well as a Berserker or Barbarian – a strike-and-fade character who does not instagib. Yes, sounds complicated – but suddenly the game’s offense is multifaceted and requires more thought both before and during the battle. Do you go with a pair of Berserkers on offense, or a pair of Knights instead? The one maximizes offense at the cost of innate survivability, while the other can defend well, but isn’t fantastic on the attack. Or do you mix things up, take along single specimens of different classes and try for a mixed strike? Or mix up secondary professions and get old-style Warriors back – but without such things as /E for Shock or /D for Rending Touch? As far as I’m concerned, that would be a far better way of doing things than would simply concentrating all the melee ability in the entire game into a single class. You’d have to think and plan and work new ideas and strategies to accommodate the fact that your melee guys aren’t the be-all end-all of combat. Which is awesome. As for Ritualists…there, you’ve got me. I’ve got no idea how those even work, let alone how to fix those…>_> |
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10
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#51 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2006
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You can pretty much recite your intire post, switch warrior => Ele (or Monk) and assassin/dervish => Rit/Paragon... There was no need for these profession because they were already fullfilled by existing ones. A result is a class that's either "better" or "worse" than the existing one, but never is it going to be balanced... (Unless they COMPLETELY review the roles of Assassins, Rits, Derv's and Paragons) |
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:24 AM // 08:24
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#52 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Monkeyball Z
Guild: S.K.A.T. [Ban]
Profession: Mo/
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I would love to see a whole different ladder for just the first 6 professions, Guild Wars was much more fun without Rits, Sins, Dervs and Paras.
Maybe make a topic about this in sardelac and see where it goes :P |
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:33 AM // 08:33
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#53 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania
Guild: Eternus Love [kiSu]
Profession: D/
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Just keep it simple?
What is the problem with having more options? Why everyone wants to keep things simple? Why just one melee? Why just monks as healers?
I think all current 10 professions are pretty diverse to fill up different roles in a party and allow for a higher degree of diversity. Yeah, they're prolly not balanced as some people in high lvl gvg would want them to be, but I think the point is they're here and we should make the best use of them. You cannot compare warriors to dervishes and to assassins and say that wars are the best at melee and there's nothing else needed for melee damage. That's why the other classes have other attributes to make up for the warrior's armor and dps in adding spice and new utilities to the game. Just think about the new professions as adding new dimensions to the game. Start from here and then work out how to balance them and how to properly use them... Just bashing them out of existence is stupid in my opinion... PS We have a saying in Romanian: Something is not beautiful because it is beautiful, but because you like it. You can apply this, or rather the reverse of it, to most of the posters on this forum... and that says it all... Last edited by tigros; Jan 31, 2008 at 08:37 AM // 08:37.. |
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Jan 31, 2008, 08:56 AM // 08:56
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#54 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Liverpool
Profession: Mo/
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Otherwise I think your post is a load of rubbish and is why you are not in a top 100 guild etc. You are thinking like a PVE'er. |
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08
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#55 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Great Soviet California!
Guild: Deputy Glitter's Shoe Squad [ghey]
Profession: Me/
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:15 AM // 10:15
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#56 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania
Guild: Eternus Love [kiSu]
Profession: D/
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Exactly...
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Make a table with 100 KPI's (Key Performance Indicators) that touch upon most of the attributes you can think of for all the three specific classes, assign them values to have a common comparison number then do the math. You will see that overall, these three classes are not that different... |
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18
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#57 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Sep 2007
Guild: bubblegum dragons
Profession: Mo/
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:24 AM // 10:24
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#58 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania
Guild: Eternus Love [kiSu]
Profession: D/
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Relative...
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For some, more is not better... For some, more is not always better... For some, more is most of the times better... For some, more is better... Now think where ANET stands in terms of point of view/reference... Then think where the high end GVG/PVP community stands in terms of point of view/reference... Then add into the math the regular PVP community, the PVE community, do the math and you'll see where the game is supposed to be to fit everybody... |
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30
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#59 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Straight Outta Kamadan [KMD]
Profession: Me/
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Dervishes are only useful for omega spike builds and npc farming at VoD (functioning as powerflagger before VoD) THESE ARE THEIR ONLY USES Warriors can spike/pressure at the stand, kill npcs in bases, fight in skirmishes. They are useful in many situations and have a lot of different purposes. Dervishes and Assassins are one-dimensional, Warriors are versatile. Versatility is good for the game, one-dimensional templates are not. |
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Jan 31, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34
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#60 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Great Soviet California!
Guild: Deputy Glitter's Shoe Squad [ghey]
Profession: Me/
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